Last week, I was able to attend the Red Line’s public meeting at the Indianapolis Art Center. There were detailed section maps from the near north side up to Broad Ripple, which were exciting to see. The Red Line has also released some meeting posters in PDF form, which is worth a look as well.
The bus is planning on taking up the center of the street on both Meridian Street and College Avenue. There will be 2 dedicated lanes on Meridian, and one on College. Along College, the buses will be able to pass one another only at the stations. They are connected by 38th Street, which will be a bit more of a mix with the current traffic configuration.
After hearing some feedback from the neighborhood, the College Avenue alignment has been altered to allow for more parallel parking near the nodes, which is shown on the map below in purple:
Note: these maps are all constructed with south at the top:
Note that these are just preliminary ideas, and not finalized, so more fine tuning could occur. Overall, this alignment will make the service fast, efficient, and prioritized.
The rapid transit service will mean a big change for residents, so it will have to be well marketed, with the best community outreach possible. Yes, there will be dedicated U-turns at the stations. Yes, there will be a low-running concrete median in between the stations so that cars can’t turn left at the side streets. Yes, you can get downtown, the south side, or to Broad Ripple. It will be aboard a frequently running bus with Wifi. No need to fight traffic, or to worry about finding a parking spot at your destination.
I’m very excited about the potential for this line. If all goes well, and we get the go ahead from the federal grant next year, Indianapolis is finally going to put all of our many studies and theories to the test.
Cool, maybe one day this will transition back into trolley/trams instead of buses…. because buses are and will forever be, for gross people. Trams are sexy and everyone knows it. Just look at LA and SF…
But this is a good step forward.
Seriously? That comment is over the line.
First of all, I’ve ridden the current College Avenue bus 100s of times. Second, this will not be that type of bus. It will be made to look like a train as much as possible, at a fraction of the cost.
Thank you so much for responding to that jerk. He was not worth my time. Obviously has never been to LA or the Bay area, as buses are used regularly. Sometimes (many times) I just can’t stand ignorant people. Thanks again. I, too, am a regular #17 rider.
Tell us, Dolores, when you rode buses in LA and San Francisco, was there a wall down the middle of the street? I was just in San Francisco in June, I rode buses everywhere, and never once saw the wall they’re planning to put down the middle of College Avenue.
If I’m wrong, correct me.
I think Curitiba Brazil has ‘train like’ busses, they’re still not really that cool compared to trans. Plus buses are louder and smoggy. This is definitely going to get used by a wider demographic of people on weekends but I don’t really think it’s going to work out as well as people are hoping for. Might end up like the monorail in detroit, only not all ‘jetsons’.
The bus is planning on being electrified, so it won’t be loud or smoggy.
ah, disregard then. will there be catenary lines? how will they charge enough? Their website doesn’t seem to have all that much info on specifics.
No each bus will have massive batteries and each station will include rapid wireless charging. It would be only the second installation of this type of system in the world after a city in Switzerland.
It won’t end up like the monorail in Detroit for two obvious reason:
1) the redline actually connects major neighborhoods and commercial nodes to downtown and the suburbs, not just circulate through a largely vacant downtown (back when it was built, but downtown Detroit is transforming fast and spectacularly right now, with a streetcar now connecting the major neighborhoods and commercial nodes along Woodward).
2) the BRT runs at grade instead of elevated, which makes it more visible and the stations will feel safer.
And the Red Line is 2 way, every 10 minutes for 20 hours a day over 13 miles. The People Mover is a one way loop (that’s very bad for transit) with 13 stations over 4 miles with variable headways and much shorter hours. They’re totally different types of service – a downtown circulator and a rapid transit line.
Does anyone know what the break even point in ridership is? I can’t find that anywhere. Also maybe I am nitpicking but WHO THE HECK PUTS SOUTH AT THE TOP OF A MAP?
Very exciting. Thanks for the update!
I’ve lived on College Avenue since 1979. When I moved there, other than for rush hour, College was quiet. Not so today. If there must be this system, put it on Keystone Avenue, which is wider, busier, and which will have the potential reach many more riders than lines down Meridian or College Avenue. There are many more businesses on Keystone, such as Target, the new Meijer store, and all the stores at Glendale. I see no reason to destroy the residential, family qualities of my neighborhood for the sake of a rapid transit line benefitting Carmel and Greenwood.
I don’t live in Carmel or Greenwood; I live in Midtown. And this will benefit me tremendously. Once this is in one place I would imagine most of the trips I take on College will no longer occur in my car – so that’s at least one less car you’re going to have to deal with. Don’t you think it’s possible that adequate public transportation might actually reduce the number of cars you see on College?
Dear Resident:
Why don’t you just ride the existing 17-College line?
I do sometimes, but it only goes until 8 on Saturdays and the red line will run much later. I also like the idea of 10 minute wait times over the half hour wait times for the current bus. You miss a bus that comes every half hour you can end up being almost am hour late to your event. Also, selfish here, but I live a block off of 38th but several blocks offs of College. It’s a long walk to wait for a long ride to BRip. Can’t wait to walk one minute to take a 15 minute ride and be there.
You know why? Because people in Indianapolis, generally speaking, aren’t interested in riding the bus except maybe to work.
The ridership will not be there.
Oh, wait a minute, I forgot about the agenda: force all of us homeowners out by killing the value of our homes, let “investors” (meaning those with the political clout to sneak around get commitments to receive our tax dollars and get their projects through before anyone’s the wiser) purchase the properties at a low value and then put in apartments to replace our homes.
Tell me I’m wrong.
gosh darned people – if we’d just stop making people, the place where no people lived would be so much nicer…
I fail to see how BRT destroys the family qualities of a neighborhood.
Well, let’s see. No left turns on College, so everyone, whether north or south bound, will have to drive through neighborhoods to the east and west of College to get places, so there’ll be extremely increased traffic flow in those areas, especially Forest Hills.
Six buses per hour, 20 hours a day, times two (north and south bound), which calculates to 240 buses per day going past my house. To be fair, I don’t know how many go past now, but it’s nowhere near 240/day. How would you like to have 240 buses a day flying past your house?
Kids who live in Forest Hills won’t be able to walk, bike or be driven to either School 84 or Immaculate Heart by crossing 57th Street, so they’ll need to either go north to Kessler, cross there, and then walk south to 57th Street or go down to 54th Street and walk north.
People who live east of College who want to get to the Monon trail to walk or bike will have to go either north to Kessler or south to 54th Street and then backtrack to get there.
Those few people in my immediate neighborhood who ride the bus to work will have to either go north or south to a “station”, because the bus stops between 54th Street and Kessler will be eliminated.
Also, there will be significantly increased traffic going much faster, since those pesky left turners will be eliminated.
Let’s look at the long-term. They’re hoping to put in a large apartment complex at Kessler and College. The sewers are not equipped to handle this volume, so rate will have to go up, if they get away with it. Such a project does not fit in with the single-family home structure to the neighborhood. Renters are not invested financially or any other way with a neighborhood. What they’re hoping for, long-term, is to drive out single family homeowners such as me so that investors can snap up these properties at a low price and make a killing.
I honestly never thought I’d live to see the day when my local government would allow something like this to happen to one of the crown jewel neighborhoods of Indianapolis.
that would be a disaster, …because keystone is already a disaster.
Natacha,
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
I don’t know what I’m talking about? Read the article above: this will be a BIG CHANGE FOR RESIDENTS. Therefore, they’re planning on trying to “market” the idea that it’s “good” to have a wall running down the middle of my street and buses running every 10 minutes.
What they’re trying to do is force out single-family residents. What they’re trying to do is to make it easier for Carmellians to get to work, so my home and neighborhood should be sacrificed.
If they try to put these lines into Carmel cul-de-sacs, what would happen, do you think?
My home and lifestyle are worth fighting for, and the neighbors I’ve spoken with agree with me.
Quite the opposite actually. It makes your area much more of a destination and easier for you to get to places without needing your car and paying for/worrying about parking when you get to your destination. Yes some areas will change if this gets built as it works better and better the more people can do things within walking distance instead of driving, but this is desirable! Places that are car-only are not vibrant. They can be busy, but they’re not vibrant. People don’t love being in places where the car dominates. We’re not talking about eliminating the car, just re-balancing Indy to support all forms of transit for the sake of our dying neighborhoods and fat/obese population (thanks in large part to things not being walkable).
Meridian-Kessler is not a dying neighborhood, and won’t be unless this project is killed. It is one of the most vibrant areas in the entire State of Indiana.
BTW: the mayor of Carmel claims it is “vibrant”. Carmel doesn’t have any public transportation.
Why not put this somewhere else that actually IS dying?
Natacha,
Your neighborhood will become more attractive & livable with property values going up. Deal with it or move to the country.
Micah: are you one of the “investors” involved in this boondoggle?
My neighborhood couldn’t be more attractive and livable. I can walk to church, to a grocery, to the Monon Trail, etc. Putting a wall down the middle of my street, eliminating left turns and removing existing bus stops will NOT increase my property values nor make it easier for people who want public transportation to use it. It will make it more difficult or even impossible.
What’s interesting is that they saved the “wall down College Avenue” little detail for late in the game.
Increased property values is just one of the lies thought up by those trying to ram this disaster through. They’re greedy, so they assume everyone else is as well.
The amount of traffic garnered from the many residents and businesses along College Avenue is the main reason why the Red Line is needed in midtown. To address your concerns, however,the Orange line will soon follow along Keystone avenue.
Reference:
http://Www.indyconnect.org
All of this is smoke and mirrors. I find it interesting how little publicized this little caper has been, and how few details have been disclosed until it is well-along.
NO ONE living on College Avenue would be in favor of this, and NO ONE living east or west of College would be in favor of this scheme, either, because it will drive down property values in the entire area, due to increased traffic to get around the no left turns on College.
If the Red Line was needed, this would be proven by the amount of ridership on the existing IndyGo system. Other than weekdays at rush hours, the buses are mostly empty. This project is not needed and will not be used. It is part of a larger plan for investors to acquire properties in Meridian Kessler without paying for the value of them, and to cram high-rise apartments into this area to qualify for free government money.
Put the line down Keystone Avenue. It will reach more people and businesses. Why College Avenue anyway–because it’s closer to Carmel than Keystone Avenue? This area is mostly single family houses. I know from living here 36 years that there aren’t many bus riders in my neighborhood.
You have made your point. No need to keep repeating yourself with the same comment.
There will be a BRT line on Keystone, the Orange Line.
Indianapolis and Broad Ripple have changed a lot in more than three decades. You might consider upgrading your mindset to reflect that instead of yearning for a return to the way things were in the 80s.
No, the things that made Broad Ripple attractive in 1979 are what still makes it attractive in 2015: single-family homes, walkable neighborhoods, early 20th-Century home styles, large yards that sit back from the street, interesting local restaurants, local churches, the list goes on and on.
If you think that Meridian-Kessler is just going to stand by and let you put in a Carmel rapid transit line through our neighborhood without a serious fight, you are seriously mistaken.
Why do you associate a BRT line with Carmel? You do need to study what a BRT transit line is all about. It’s not just about getting from remote point A to remote point B, it’s about connecting all of the productive places in between too and making them even more productive. Car oriented-design can only scale to a certain level before it starts imploding on itself because who truly loves a car-centric place? Not many people. Transit, walking, biking allow vibrancy in a much more compact manner which is what allows for more quaint, vibrant and lovable areas that can never exist in areas with huge, busy roads (and stroads [1]).
http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2013/3/4/the-stroad.html
I love how you throw around the word “vibrant”, which is the best descriptor for Meridian Kessler. You don’t live here or you would know that people already walk and bike to get around. You want to kill Meridian Kessler and to begin by driving a stake down the heart, College Avenue.
Improve the existing bus lines. Purchase electric buses to reduce pollution. People in Indianapolis aren’t embracing bus travel except to get to work, and they won’t after you kill my neighborhood, either.
Natasha, do you know what NIMBY stands for? If you think this BRT Line won’t raise your property value, you have a lot to learn.
I agree with you NATACHA I have property at 38th and Meridian and
this will be a mess , they need to use capital or Illinois st.. We have 100s of car going thru our center daily and they want to take our parking and right of way to make this bus turn..
Very exciting! Can’t wait for my first ride on the Red Line. Will use this often between downtown and Midtown.
Same here. I’ll have zero reason to ever drive my car from downtown to BR, which will be one step closer to not even needing a car at all. The only trips I’ll still need a car for are visiting friends in the suburbs and I’m working out how to solve that car need.
The point of the line is to attract new riders. College avenue makes perfect sense to achieve that goal. With proven new ridership from a broad socioeconomic cross-section, then a keystone line would be one of many potential nice complements to the established system. Keep in mind public transit as an alternative to cars is in its nascent phase in Indy. Done right, the system can be expanded and refined with taxpayers’ and businesses’ enthusiastic support and the different parts of town can finally be connected in a cohesive way…even places like Carmel. Right now, the city isa disconnected mishmash with so much wasted potential.
I’m just tired of parking lots and people whining about needing more parking. Move to the suburbs if you like parking so much. So much wasted space.
If this all works out, hopefully we go back to being a real city with real density.
Agreed. I was noticing again on my bike ride around the Cultural Trail yesterday how many freakin parking lots we still have to fill in. Parking lots make things look so ugly, they make areas hotter (temperature-wise) and they’re dead spaces. People put cars there, otherwise they’re almost never otherwise used spaces. Such a waste! Thank our zoning code for our parking lot proliferation mess.
If anyone else here is old enough to remember when Emerson Avenue through Beech Grove had a “wall” between the through and local traffic, you will get what I’m saying here.
A “Berlin Wall” down the center of College Ave. dividing the neighborhood, and the loss of lane capacity, will have the effect of forcing more car traffic off College (a mixed use street) and onto parallel streets that are non-commercial. Note that back in the day, this did not happen with streetcars because they didn’t have dedicated lanes or hard barriers to turns.
I think the main recipient of north-south traffic will be Central Ave…which has at least five schools and day-care centers, and more churches than I can count quickly between Fall Creek and Westfield Blvd.
Ultimately, a new equilibrium will occur, but I suspect there will be some problems that might be significant…and I hope no tragedies.
I did mention at the meeting that I would prefer to see more crosswalks (with flashing yellow lights) throughout College Avenue, especially in the places where there are 4 blocks in between stations. I think cuts and crosswalks at 44th and 40th would be reasonable to ask for.
Central is a pain to drive up, and they should keep it that way. I can see people wanting to deal with those stop signs for more than a few blocks. I see traffic going to either Meridian or Keystone. Considering that starting from the South (as north bound will lose it’s double lanes) you can position yourself one either pretty easily using 70. I don’t think it will have a massive impact on the surrounding areas because there are actually a few other options as well. College was always a bad car commuting street anyways because it is so choked as it goes farther north. As far as business goes there are not too many commuting type businesses that will really miss that traffic.
No, the city is not a mish-mash. You can get anywhere you need to go on the existing bus system. People in Indianapolis don’t ride the bus except for work. They just aren’t interested, and this system won’t change that.
What “proven new ridership” are you speaking of? I see IndyGo buses every single day. Except for rush hour, they are mostly empty. This is fact, not opinion. Not only do you want to destroy Meridian-Kessler, you want us to pay for it, too.
You raise an interesting point regarding traffic moving to the side streets. The simple solution is police enforcement of stop signs (and school zones). If drivers actually came to complete stops, the side streets would be slower, safer, and not a viable “shortcut” to avoid arterials like College and Meridian.
College is not an “arterial”, except in the minds of those hell-bent on destroying Meridian-Kessler.
Cars will go down side streets because there will be no other way to get to where they are going.
If there are that many schools on Central, then there are surely 25mph school zones. Enforce them. Elevate the pedestrian, literally, by installing raised crosswalks through the Safe Routes to School program.
There are lots of ways to simultaneously make streets safer for pedestrians and slightly inconvenient (but not impossible) to use as an alternative route.
Kevin’s point about ped x-ings is well made, but I don’t agree with your premise, Chris. There is no loss of capacity southbound; it’s one lane today. Actually you’ll make the straight-through trip better by adding turn lanes and signals, removing the main source of delay on College (cars turning left). You do lose a northbound lane, but you remove stopped buses and add turn lanes, again removing the biggest sources of backups and improving the straight-through trip. I’ll be interested in IndyGo’s traffic analysis, but I suspect that there will be less diversion off College than you’re implying. I believe that more of the long-haul Carmel trips will actually want to move to Keystone when 96th and Keystone gets fixed. In the meantime you could argue that this alignment is a big fix for all motorists on College, whether they’re turning or heading straight through in either direction.
Yes this was true for some streets even in downtown Manhattan. The city narrowed some lanes, removed some even to put in protected bike lanes, but added dedicated turning lanes and actually saw congestion decrease and throughput increase (albeit slightly).
Putting the line on Keystone Avenue would provide access to Keystone Plaza, with a Dollar Store and Marsh Supermarket, Woodfield at the Crossing, Keystone at the Crossing, Wal-Mart, Lowes, Indiana Math & Science Academy, and Merle Sidener School, among other businesses, stores and public buildings.
Keystone is already divided and doesn’t allow parking. The College Avenue bus goes across Kessler, and stops at Keystone. There’s another bus that goes across 62nd Street and stops at Keystone. Likewise, a bus that goes across 86th Street and could stop at Keystone. There’s a 38th Street bus that could stop at Keystone.
Putting the line down College Avenue makes no sense from the point of view of cost or access, especially if there’s a line down Meridian Street. The lines should be further apart. Also, the College bus line would lose stops, and there would be even fewer riders. Where I live, one would need to walk at least 2 blocks for a bus, as opposed to a few feet, as it is now. As others have pointed out, a line down College Avenue would further congest side streets such as Central. There is no good or valid reason to destroy the aesthetics of this neighborhood by putting a line down College Avenue.
A couple of points:
-There’s not parallel lines on College and Meridian, but instead one line that will be connected between the 2 corridors on 38th Street.
-“Destroy the aesthetics of this neighborhood” is subjective hyperbole. Please stick with the facts, since the facts that I have show that the population density is much higher along College than it is along Keystone. Keystone may happen eventually as Chris Corr mentioned, but it would need much more public funding via public referendum to be turned into a useful rapid transit corridor.
Well, let’s see now: there will be a wall down the middle of College Avenue, left turns will be prohibited, replaced by some kind of U-turns, some sort of station will be placed at Kessler, 54th Street and other places, and side-streets will see massively increased amounts of traffic. Those things will affect the quality of life and beauty of the area. Also, even though you deny it because you know it would stop the project for sure, they’ll likely need to widen College Avenue eventually and take out trees. They might also need to widen Central Avenue and take it some of its big, old trees, too.
This is a lovely area, with well-maintained early 20th-Century homes, and large, well-maintained yards. Houses sit back off of the street. I’m sure that the “urban planners” already have widening of College Avenue in their long-range plans.
I can assure you that no streets will be widened. If nothing else, it would be outrageously cost-prohibitive to acquire land for such a project.
Also, there will not be a wall down the middle of College. There will be an inches-tall median that the buses will drive over.
Read what the article above says: a “low-running wall”, designed to prevent left turns.
No, you aren’t disclosing the plan to widen College because you don’t even have the money or support for the existing plan, but you’re not being honest by claiming that long-range this won’t be necessary.
Of course, by the time you’ve destroyed home values on College Avenue by putting this Carmel bus line in, acquiring the land won’t be as cost-prohibitive.
If they aren’t going to widen College where is the parallel parking coming from? I live off of Shelby near Garfield Park and have lived in this city for 65 years. Where are the riders to fill the busses coming from. I just don’t see Carmel residents filling these vehicles and I don’t think Greenwood residents will either.
Larry and Natacha: I would suggest that you need to educate yourself on the full purposes of mass transit. They are not just to get business people downtown from Carmel and back. They make it easy and more fun to go from downtown to BR, or BR to downtown without having to worry about parking. You get to be outside with friends to do social things. You get time to sit and think without having to pay attention while commuting. There are many productive places along this line for business, social, grocery shopping, recreational, etc. This line will increase the demand for these kinds of things which will restore our neighborhoods. I didn’t understand this until I road in some amazing BRT, light rail, streetcar and subway systems while traveling in Europe. It is hard to imagine this if you haven’t personally experienced it – I get that. This is a big paradigm shift for many Indy residents. But College Ave was formed thanks to mass transit and it’s vibrancy will be more fully restored with the Red Line built.
There has been study after study on this line. You’re comments are a little late to the game. Don’t ruin this for the community. If it bothers you that much, maybe you should consider moving. I bet you’d make a great profit since people want to live close to public transportation.
We have public transportation that is more convenient that this would be. What skin do you have in this game, anyway, Mike? Please disclose this.
As far as comments being “a little late to the game”, no one in my neighborhood that I’ve spoken to recalls any notice being provided to us about this, but I can guarantee you I’ll spread the word, so maybe the “game” isn’t over yet. Is this like most Indianapolis projects, insider deals cut before anyone’s the wiser, sort of like the Blue Indy deal?
What “community” are you referring to, anyway? Certainly not the “community” I live in.
This deal will ruin property values, and you probably know it.
Again, what skin do you have in this game?
One other thing, Mike: Besides the fact that I shouldn’t be forced to move from my home of 36 years because I don’t want a Carmel bus line and wall down the middle of College Avenue, unlike those sneaking around trying to get this done without full disclosure, I’d have to be honest and disclose to any prospective purchasers the details of the nefarious plan to put in this line, with its wall. That would surely drive down the value of my home and limit the number of interested purchasers.
Unless you’re marketing your home to cranks who think that living in a city should be like living in the middle of the low density suburbs, I think you’ll do okay selling your house. BRT actually raises property values.
How long have you lived here? A little harsh with the comment on moving. I have seen public transportation die in this area because people won’t use it. I hope this works but have doubts.
Larry, yes there’s pretty pathetic public transit in Indy right now and yeah it’s pretty dead. But it hasn’t been done well is the real problem. Why would anyone rely on a method of transit that is inconvenient and slow other than if they have to because they can’t afford a car? The answer is nobody would and very few (comparatively) do. A modern BRT system with real time bus tracking, frequent busses (low wait times), clean and friendly service, and times comparable to or faster than cars due to signal priority through intersections will make all of the difference. I for one can’t wait to use my car less and less in this city. Driving is expensive, inconvenient, socially isolating and monotonous. It’s unproductive and it makes all of us fatter and lazier.
Hey Natacha, your claims of nefarious plans might be worth listening to if there had not been numerous well published public hearings about mass transit plans for the past several years. You obviously don’t like what’s happening so you might want belatedly voicing your belated concerns at the appropriate forums rather than spend a lot of time here where your opinions aren’t going to lead to any change.
Yes, I’ve received information on the Red Line at my house in Midtown Magazine, Broad Ripple Magazine, and the MK Spark. Not to mention many news reports on tv, and articles on the IndyStar, IBJ, and here. People talking about not being informed of changes are simply looking for something else to complain about.
I like the images provided, wish there were more. I don’t really drive this road all that often but I’d like to see how it works up at broadripple or is it not going all that way up?
Hamilton county residents don’t want your busline either. There is no way a referendum to fund mass transit wins in Hamilton County.
Which is why once the referendum passes in Marion County people in townships in Hamilton County that border Marion County will be able to vote in favor of the referendum.
They won’t vote in favor of them. Residents moved to be away from the city, not to have the city brought to them. Do you really think Hamilton county folks want to see buses running on their roads, bus stops outside of their subdivisions, buses at Hamilton Town Center and Clay Terrace (especially after all the issues that have occurred at Castleton). It won’t pass. If businesses need transport for their staff, they need to look to San Francisco and something like the Google bus and provide transportation for their own staff.
No worries. When we finally get a donut county tax passed for people who daily commute into the city, others will finally start sharing the burden for the roads that Marion County taxpayers have been carrying on our own.
No way a donut county tax passes. Indy pisses so much money away that there is no way the legislature gives them the ability to raise more money from non-residents. Bad Colts deal, $$$ to Pacers, all the $$$ to developers for deals that should be done w/out subsidies, the broad ripple parking garage, money for BlueIndy, etc… How as an elected official can you vote to give them more money when they manage their budgets so poorly now???
I will copy and paste one last comment from the IndyGo’s project engineer:
I was hoping that you could make a correction in your piece on the Red Line. The fact that you used “wall†is bouncing around in emails all over the place. It was never going to be a wall – it’s a 4 inch tall by 16 inch wide concrete median that runs between the wheels of the bus (the bus drives over top of it). It will also be “mountableâ€, meaning the curbs are at a 45 degree angle instead of vertical so that large vehicles (like a fire truck) can go across it in case of emergency. So, peds can easily step over it and, per your comment, short breaks can easily be provided for bikes/strollers/wheelchairs. However, we cannot allow breaks large enough for a car to turn left across it without installing a signal because of safety/visibility issues.